Knock & Talk Technique

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Danno
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Knock & Talk Technique

Post by Danno » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:38 am

Suppose a hotel or motel desk clerk is suspicious and calls the cops.

People enjoy the greatest freedom from searches and seizures while they are in their homes, behind closed doors. Motel and hotel rooms have the same degree of protection, if rented overnight so as to constitute the equivalent of a home. Hotel and motel clerks do not have the ability to waive your Fourth Amendment rights by letting LE into your room. Don't let LE say they do in order to coerce you to open a motel or hotel door.

If the public can't see you, you enjoy the greatest protections under the Fourth Amendment while you are in the home or in the hotel or motel room. Let's call this "super-protected," because almost always a warrant is required to enter the home where the doorway is closed.

LE may try to get you and any companion(s) into a more vulnerable position by using what is called the "Knock & Talk" technique. Once you open the door and become visible to the officers, such that members of the general public could also see you, you lose a great deal of protection under the Fourth Amendment. You can be arrested, or frisked, under the same conditions as if you were out in public, once you open that door.

A common misconception is that, if you stay on the indoor-side of the threshold of an open doorway, you remain super-protected under the Fourth Amendment. But that is simply not so.

Here's how "Knock & Talk" works. Simply, LE will knock and wait for a reaction. One possible reaction is that you say something. Then LE will continue to engage you in a conversation.

LE may gain greater powers depending on any other reaction you may have. If they hear or see evidence being destroyed, this may allow LE to gain probable cause for a warrant or possibly even empower LE to enter without a warrant. Care should be taken not to make a lot of noise that could be misinterpreted as destruction of evidence. The same is true with gestures in front of windows into which LE could look from the outside. Once you open that door, what LE sees in plain view, or hears through the opening of the door, or smells with the door opened, may provide a basis for your arrest or a frisk of your person.

From your standpoint the best reaction to the "Knock & Talk" technique may be to simply keep quiet and wait for LE to go away after five or ten minutes. Again, do not open the door just because someone says the motel or hotel will open it if you do not. How will you opening the door be any better than having the door opened by a desk clerk? Besides, it's a search or seizure if the clerk does it; it's not if you do it with consent.

If you do not want to simply remain silent and hope LE will go away, eventually, you could speak to LE behind a closed door or even call dispatch to see if they will put you through to the officer(s). You should make it clear you do not wish to speak with LE and will not open the door without a warrant. If LE seems to be ordering you to open the door, clarify that by asking if it is a request or an order. If LE says it is a request, stand your ground and do not open the door. If it is an order, clarify that one more time and then open the door so you do not get charged with obstruction or resisting.

So what should you do if LE comes knocking and will not simply go away? Do not open the door immediately, unless you truly have nothing whatsoever to hide.

Perhaps while you are waiting to open the door as LE persists in knocking, you and any companion(s) could discuss a game plan and agree to stick to the plan once the door is opened. One game plan could be for any alleged Contractor(s) not to open the door of the home or room while in possession of any money whilst any alleged hobbyist can emerge in possession of any money. Obviously, then, no cash was ever exchanged and any game plan to say you are just intimate friends will carry a lot more weight than if the alleged Contractor is in possession of hundreds or even thousands of dollars in currency.

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Post by YAG » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:41 am

Wow - thanks!
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SHELLEY

Post by SHELLEY » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:18 am

Danno is the BEST!

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Post by Poker69 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:36 am

Post of the day award captured at 6:38AM. Fantastic Danno. I hope all your teams win too.
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Track

Post by Track » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:11 pm

A concise and cogent review of (dwindling) 4th Amendment protections re: hotels. Thank you, Danno.

Even should there be nothing to hide, think very carefully about letting LE in.

After all, it's much harder to plant evidence in a place they've never been.

No. I am not kidding.

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Post by YAG » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:48 pm

Track wrote:A concise and cogent review of (dwindling) 4th Amendment protections re: hotels. Thank you, Danno.

Even should there be nothing to hide, think very carefully about letting LE in.

After all, it's much harder to plant evidence in a place they've never been.

No. I am not kidding.
No, you're not.
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Post by JD261JD » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:07 pm

Danno, your post is golden. Thanks for providing that information for all of us!

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Post by awildindividual » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:43 pm

VERY good post and well explained...... Thank you.

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Post by Danno » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:20 pm

Here's a link to a more scholarly discussion of the "Knock & Talk" technique.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... n18791225/

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Post by SensorySurprise » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:07 am

Why am I suddenly so turned on?
"The fun work of art is sacred, too."
Egon Schiele

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Post by SensorySurprise » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:13 am

Why am I suddenly so turned on?
"The fun work of art is sacred, too."
Egon Schiele

naughtynatalya4u

Post by naughtynatalya4u » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:36 am

Great info! Hope I do not have to use this info tonight.
THANKS Danno

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Post by Danno » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:33 am

If you decide you are going to open the door, any game plan for thereafter could include knowing the true name and a few details about the person you are with. For instance the police may ask each of you what the other person's real name is. Does the other person have kids? Where does the other person live? And so on.

Yes, it starts to get complicated to keep stories straight. Meanwhile you are increasing your risk of being found to have obstructed justice or police. You cannot get in trouble for that for exercising your right to remain silent. That is a constitutional right. Lying to police is not a constitutional right.

This is why the best game plan may be for both parties simply not to open the door in the first place and just to ride out the knocking on the door until the officers leave. Failing that, ensure that a Contractor not possess money upon opening the door and then for both parties simply to agree not to speak to police and, failing that, have both parties try to keep their stories straight by exchanging some important details about each other before opening the door.

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Post by Pumpmaster » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:12 am

Great info Danno, What about going into the hall with only an ID and locking the door behind. I know you risk LE "seeing or hearing" something while the door is open.

I found the case with LE knocking on the door and window for over 3 min interesting.

SHELLEY

Post by SHELLEY » Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:41 pm

Danno,

What if....the hotel manager opens the door for the police...I know they are not supposed to but what if they do...or threaten to do it?

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Post by cedarlooman » Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:34 pm

In that case, the argument could be made for illegal search, since technically you are the renter of the room, and unless your agreement with the hotel stipulates they can enter your room, that would be a violation of your privacy. I'm no Danno, but I do read a lot, and have taught some basic business law...

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Post by Danno » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:16 pm

If the manager or housekeeping opens the door in the regular course of business, that's not state action, especially if the room contract specifies they can enter the room. So if they see something criminal they can report it to the cops and it can serve as the basis for a warrant or other action if appropriate.

But once the manager or housekeeping opens the door at the request of the police, the private actor (manager or housekeeper) becomes a state actor operating under color of law -- as an agent of the State! Then it would almost certainly be an illegal search. There are exceptions, however. For instance, if the guest has left or abandoned the room, the guest has lost any expectation of privacy.

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Post by BLGuy » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:00 am

Very good info that we all need to know and follow.

Thanks!

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Post by Lem » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:09 am

Thanks Danno.

All good stuff and all good knowledge to have. Quite honestly, I don't know what I would do if LE knocked on the door. I would like to think I do enough research in advance that this would never be an issue. However, there is still risk and that is always in the back of my mind- every time.
\m/

MikeHammer

Post by MikeHammer » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:26 pm

Ear plugs for two, lights off (at least where they can see them under the door) before any action starts, and use all the mechanisms to lock the door. If you get the police knock at the door, put in your earplugs and crawl under the covers, right after shutting off any remaining light sources. If they bust down the door without a warrant, get a good lawyer and a divorce lawyer if necessary. You'll probably get the criminal case thrown out on technicality, but explaining to the spouse for either party why you got put in jail is going to be a problem either way.

Now, assuming they won't bust down the door for obvious reasons, you need a plan of action to get the visiting party out. Who knows how long they'll hang out, and where? In the case of an REDACTED, the girls obviously have a problem sticking around. This is why I don't like going to most REDACTED (too easy to spot a bunch of guys coming and going at regular intervals. Bigger hotels in downtown areas may be better choices, depending on layout, but depending on the city, may not be the best location for the guys, not to mention the cost is usually high. It's definitely in a lady's best interest to not have a high and noticeable traffic of men beating down her door. Hanging around any location too long or too often will make you a target. It's like I learned in the Army, when you hit a target, never stick around more than a couple of minutes, because those guys you just kicked off the objective have friends with big guns...aimed right at YOU.

captain7

Post by captain7 » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:10 am

Good advice but he failed to tell you that LE will lie in court.

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Post by YAG » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:59 am

captain7 wrote:Good advice but he failed to tell you that LE will lie in court.
I think we all pretty much all accept that that is going to happen.
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Post by Danno » Sun May 02, 2010 11:50 am

Here are some interesting questions to ponder under Illinois law.

Prostitution can be accepting money for (1) sexual penetration or (2) touching or fondling someone's sex organs.

Soliciting a sexual act can be offering money for either one of the two listed actions.

But patronizing a prostitute can only be for sexual penetration -- not for having one's sex organ merely touched or fondled by another. Sexual penetration does not exist unless it invloved a two-party contact. Unilateral masturbation doesn't count.

When there's a knock-and-talk by police at a hotel room, or when there's a raid at an asian massage parlor, it's better simply to say nothing at all.

But if a hobbyist does decide to chat with Larry Edwards, what if the hobbyist claims that no specific acts were discussed (i.e., no solicitation of a sexual act)and all the hobbyist expected for his money was a happy happy (i.e., no patronizing because there was no intent to have penetration). Has the hobbyist incriminated himself?

What if the Contractor states that she intended to give the hobbyist whatever he wanted, but that had not been discussed. It could have been a therapeutic rubdown, REDACTED rubdown, or sexual penetration, she says, because she would have done whatever he wanted or whatever events led to. But it was never discussed, she reiterates, and nothing happened beyond some kissing and a rubdown before LE knocked at the door. Has she incriminated herself?

Suppose the hobbyist was concerned the Contractor was LE upon arriving at the hotel room. What if the hobbyist asked the Contractor to penetrate her own sex organ before he was willing to hand her the money? Up to this point has anything illegal occurred? What if she proceeded to penetrate herself -- has anything illegal occurred up to this point?

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Post by Bliss69 » Sun May 02, 2010 5:34 pm

Okay so what if you just opened the door and told them that all that was taking place was a paid topless massage? And if the Contractor had money then that was the price of the massage?
Bliss

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Post by Danno » Sun May 02, 2010 9:42 pm

As soon as you open a door, you lose privacy and thus a good deal of protection under the Fourth Amendment.

The police have won half the battle as soon as you open that door, whether it's at your home or at a motel.

Better to say something with the door shut, if you feel the need to speak at all. Better yet, say nothing.

SweetCheyenna

I found this also:

Post by SweetCheyenna » Tue May 04, 2010 6:00 am




http://www.fletc.gov/training/programs/ ... art-1.html


So your car, your motel, and of course, your home all apply- probably even your place of employment depending on your station there... (Office with closed door VS "on the floor/shared public area").

As for having nothing to hide... They will twist ANYTHING YOU SAY ("can and will be used against you") so SAY NOTHING. You do not have to succumb to that. YOU can only INCRIMINATE YOURSELF.

Tell your company to simply present ID if asked and nothing more other than, "Am I under arrest or am I free to go?"- It is one or the other and no gray area there. SAY NOTHING. If they wanna arrest you, STILL Say NOTHING to them. ONLY talk to an attorney. They will try to trick you and be your helpful buddy and blah, blah, blah. THEY ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND!Hope that helps.

XOXOXOXO

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Post by maria28 » Wed May 05, 2010 10:44 pm

I'm not sure about Illinois,but in Atlanta massages are illegal w/o a license!

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Post by Poker69 » Wed May 05, 2010 10:53 pm

maria28 wrote:I'm not sure about Illinois,but in Atlanta massages are illegal w/o a license!
Illinois has everything else solved. We're working on hair braiders now. It's the only thing left before we're done.

http://www.sj-r.com/news/x776893244/Hou ... r-braiders
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iamsuave

Post by iamsuave » Wed May 05, 2010 11:06 pm

Dear God. Good thing I didn't have my friend do that braid she was wanting to do to my hair out in front of the police station the other day.

(Yes, my hair is that long)

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Post by Danno » Thu May 06, 2010 7:33 am

Isn't that why they call them "rubdowns" rather than "massages"?

Under Illinois law, a "massage" is defined as follows:

""Massage" or "massage therapy" means a system of structured palpation or movement of the soft tissue of the body. The system may include, but is not limited to, techniques such as effleurage or stroking and gliding, petrissage or kneading, tapotement or percussion, friction, vibration, compression, and stretching activities as they pertain to massage therapy. These techniques may be applied by a licensed massage therapist with or without the aid of lubricants, salt or herbal preparations, hydromassage, thermal massage, or a massage device that mimics or enhances the actions possible by human hands. The purpose of the practice of massage, as licensed under this Act, is to enhance the general health and well-being of the mind and body of the recipient. "Massage" does not include the diagnosis of a specific pathology. "Massage" does not include those acts of physical therapy or therapeutic or corrective measures that are outside the scope of massage therapy practice as defined in this Section."

Under the Massage Licensing Act:

"Beginning January 1, 2005, persons engaged in massage for compensation must be licensed by the Department."

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Post by YAG » Thu May 06, 2010 8:28 am

Damn, I had to look up "tapotement"
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Post by maria28 » Thu May 06, 2010 10:04 am

WOW!I need a massage right now.The way you define it sounds so fun.Hey,Yag,you sure you're not certified?

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Post by Publisher » Thu May 06, 2010 10:09 am

maria28 wrote:WOW!I need a massage right now.The way you define it sounds so fun.Hey,Yag,you sure you're not certified?
I am sure he would accommodate for free, and with no money changing hands, no crime.
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Post by YAG » Thu May 06, 2010 12:00 pm

maria28 wrote:WOW!I need a massage right now.The way you define it sounds so fun.Hey,Yag,you sure you're not certified?
Close enough, hottie! Come on over!
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Post by RawkNRoLLz » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:32 pm

what if we say it's just a one night stand and we don't know each other's names and I have a wad of cash in my pocket.....at least that sounds like a good plan.

you and any companion(s) could discuss a game plan and agree to stick to the plan once the door is opened. One game plan could be for any alleged Contractor(s) not to open the door of the home or room while in possession of any money whilst any alleged hobbyist can emerge in possession of any money.

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Post by Danno » Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:14 am

Here is the problem.

The courts have tried to make things easy for training police, but not for training those who encounter police. For example, this year the Supreme Court approved police rephrasing Miranda warnings, so they can now have some degree of ambiguity. Yet to assert the right to remain silent, the assertion must be unambiguous.

In short, it's hard to give nuanced advice for specific situations to those who may encounter police questioning.

Thus, the best advice for those who may encounter police needs to be made more simple than before these court decisions.

Simply put: Do not speak to police without a lawyer.

Simply say: "I want to remain silent. I want an attorney."

Jayson17

Re: Knock & Talk Technique

Post by Jayson17 » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:51 am

This is great advice; especially for a Lookie Loo, such as myself. I’ve been hobbying off and on for a year and I only get the opportunity once every 2 – 3 months. I would like it to happen more often but a lot goes into having a safe / relaxing cup of coffee.

I only see companions who require refs and I do my homework on them -- Before I make contact. Luckily, I have found a few special hotties that the trust is mutual; however, like most guys, I like a little variety once and awhile and branching out to new (and exciting) venues have been difficult lately.

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Post by bea » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:42 pm

The best I've heard it put is "You have the right to remain silent, so shut the hell up!"

Police use a technique called verbal judo. They are trained to get you to reveal details that can get you to admit to a crime. Most importantly DO NOT under any circumstance lie. That is obstruction of justice and an arrestable offense in itself. It's better to say I don't know or remain silent.

As for LE lying. I've seen it first hand and unfortunately there is not much you can do. Just don't give them ammo against you.

I'm fairly new to this hobby and it's getting scary out there. It would be nice if Larry decided to go after the polar bear hunters with as much enthusiasm...

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Post by Publisher » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:38 pm

Ah, we may soon have an official government statement on a variety of questionable practices that are permitted by officers in one of our fair states. This should be interesting.
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Post by Publisher » Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:47 am

Danno wrote:Here is the problem.

The courts have tried to make things easy for training police, but not for training those who encounter police. For example, this year the Supreme Court approved police rephrasing Miranda warnings, so they can now have some degree of ambiguity. Yet to assert the right to remain silent, the assertion must be unambiguous.

In short, it's hard to give nuanced advice for specific situations to those who may encounter police questioning.

Thus, the best advice for those who may encounter police needs to be made more simple than before these court decisions.

Simply put: Do not speak to police without a lawyer.

Simply say: "I want to remain silent. I want an attorney."
Time to bump this sage advice in light of the current goings on reported by The Witch in central Illinois.
"All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke

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Post by clarktoplay » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:49 am

Great info. Thanks

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Post by Sexyhunnypot42069 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:03 am

Ok so let's say someone *make screaming monkey noises* up and doesn't take dannos wonderfully knowledgable advice here.

HELP, I'VE BEEN ARRESTED!

Okay, so, you have been arrested. You are in a state of shock, and are angry that it happened to you. Believe me, whatever you are going through, some one else has been through it before. Here are some tips to help you get through your experience, which you need to do for your protection, as well as to have a good defense available when you go to court. (these tips are also good to keep in mind if you have not been arrested yet- so you remember what to do if it happens to you.)

* Write down all the events that led up to your arrest. When did the undercover cop call you, what did he say on the telephone, what did he say when he arrived? What was he wearing- did he get undressed and if so, what was this size of his penis, etc. Was his penis erect when he got undressed? How about when you got undressed? Did he have any tattoos, or other unusual identifying marks on his body that will prove to a jury that the cop was fully undressed before he arrested you? Did he let you give him a massage before he arrested you? For how long? Did he make you give him oral sex or have intercourse with you? How many other cops were involved in arresting you? If the first officer allowed you to get undressed, when the other cops arrived, did they see you naked before they allowed you to get dressed? Did they take pictures of you in your underwear or while you were naked? Did they take anything from your house or apartment, and if so, did they give you a property receipt for it? Was everything they took listed properly on the receipt? Did they say why they needed to take anything from your apartment or go through your purse? Be sure they correctly list the amount of money you have in your purse, or you can kiss it goodbye. If you are missing anything when you return to you home after you have been released from jail on bail, be sure to check every room incase they moved it somewhere else. If it is not anywhere, file a theft report as soon as possible, and give a copy of the report to your attorney. These are things that are important to remember if you do get to go to trial. So, write them down as soon as possible before you forget them.

* When seeking a lawyer, here are some things to think about. If you decide to go with a public defender, which you may want to do if you have no money, remember that they are being paid by the same people who are prosecuting you- and for many of them, it is just a game. Many public defenders are so over worked with cases, they just want you to plead guilty and take the mandatory jail time. To them, having you go to jail for 45 days is no big deal- after all, they might be defending someone accused of murder and the sentence for that is much more serious than a mere 45 days. So, even though it is your freedom at stake and going to jail for even one day seems like the end of the world to you, they are not necessarily going to be sympathetic, so keep that in mind. If you tell them that you want to fight your case, they will probably tell you that you haven't got a chance of winning and tell you that you should plead guilty to save them some time. You might get lucky and get a public defender who believes that the law is wrong, and decides to help you fight it, but don't count on it. You get what you pay for.

Let's say that you decide to hire an attorney that isn't a public defender. How do you know who is a good one and who is not? You need to find someone who is (a) either experienced in handling prostitution cases and knows the law and the system, or, (b) someone who is cause oriented and thinks the prostitution laws are wrong and will fight tooth and nail to defend you. Yes, this might cost you money- unfortunately, that's the price of choosing to engage in behavior that is outside the "acceptable" norm. If you haven't been arrested yet, you may want to sock away some money to pay for a lawyer incase you do get arrested. It is well worth taking the time and money to speak to an attorney before you get arrested and know that you have someone you can call on the minute you are sitting in the local police station being booked
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Post by Danno » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:57 pm

If you're writing what occurred, put at the top the phrase "To my Attorney... Attorney-Client Privilege" so that there's a fighting chance that what you wrote will be privileged if later someone gets ahold of it. Also secure in a safe spot what you wrote so no one does get ahold of it.

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Post by MOCHA » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:49 pm

mmmmmmm my brain is eating all of this info right up....nom nom nom :)
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Post by Sexyhunnypot42069 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:11 pm

This info is vital it could save ur ass someday.
Why do ppl say grow some balls? Balls are sensitive and weak. If you really wanna get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!
History is never made by well behaved women.

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Post by Publisher » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:38 am

Bump
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stings

Post by docthvac » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:59 pm

after reading about the stings and especially LE im kinda afraid to hook up with a Contractor.I no that dude never did like him.dont wanna give him the satisfaction of stingin me. :wink:

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Re: Knock & Talk Technique

Post by Exoticsasha » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:30 am

Danno wrote:Suppose a hotel or motel desk clerk is suspicious and calls the cops.

People enjoy the greatest freedom from searches and seizures while they are in their homes, behind closed doors. Motel and hotel rooms have the same degree of protection, if rented overnight so as to constitute the equivalent of a home. Hotel and motel clerks do not have the ability to waive your Fourth Amendment rights by letting LE into your room. Don't let LE say they do in order to coerce you to open a motel or hotel door.

If the public can't see you, you enjoy the greatest protections under the Fourth Amendment while you are in the home or in the hotel or motel room. Let's call this "super-protected," because almost always a warrant is required to enter the home where the doorway is closed.

LE may try to get you and any companion(s) into a more vulnerable position by using what is called the "Knock & Talk" technique. Once you open the door and become visible to the officers, such that members of the general public could also see you, you lose a great deal of protection under the Fourth Amendment. You can be arrested, or frisked, under the same conditions as if you were out in public, once you open that door.

A common misconception is that, if you stay on the indoor-side of the threshold of an open doorway, you remain super-protected under the Fourth Amendment. But that is simply not so.

Here's how "Knock & Talk" works. Simply, LE will knock and wait for a reaction. One possible reaction is that you say something. Then LE will continue to engage you in a conversation.

LE may gain greater powers depending on any other reaction you may have. If they hear or see evidence being destroyed, this may allow LE to gain probable cause for a warrant or possibly even empower LE to enter without a warrant. Care should be taken not to make a lot of noise that could be misinterpreted as destruction of evidence. The same is true with gestures in front of windows into which LE could look from the outside. Once you open that door, what LE sees in plain view, or hears through the opening of the door, or smells with the door opened, may provide a basis for your arrest or a frisk of your person.

From your standpoint the best reaction to the "Knock & Talk" technique may be to simply keep quiet and wait for LE to go away after five or ten minutes. Again, do not open the door just because someone says the motel or hotel will open it if you do not. How will you opening the door be any better than having the door opened by a desk clerk? Besides, it's a search or seizure if the clerk does it; it's not if you do it with consent.

If you do not want to simply remain silent and hope LE will go away, eventually, you could speak to LE behind a closed door or even call dispatch to see if they will put you through to the officer(s). You should make it clear you do not wish to speak with LE and will not open the door without a warrant. If LE seems to be ordering you to open the door, clarify that by asking if it is a request or an order. If LE says it is a request, stand your ground and do not open the door. If it is an order, clarify that one more time and then open the door so you do not get charged with obstruction or resisting.

So what should you do if LE comes knocking and will not simply go away? Do not open the door immediately, unless you truly have nothing whatsoever to hide.

Perhaps while you are waiting to open the door as LE persists in knocking, you and any companion(s) could discuss a game plan and agree to stick to the plan once the door is opened. One game plan could be for any alleged Contractor(s) not to open the door of the home or room while in possession of any money whilst any alleged hobbyist can emerge in possession of any money. Obviously, then, no cash was ever exchanged and any game plan to say you are just intimate friends will carry a lot more weight than if the alleged Contractor is in possession of hundreds or even thousands of dollars in currency.
THANKS!!! :D :D :D

PairOfDice

Post by PairOfDice » Wed May 18, 2016 3:06 pm

I know it's detailed better elsewhere on the internet but there are many ways to pick hotels & deal with hotel clerks that can reduce the dreaded outcome of becoming the target of a knock & talk. I can detail some ways once I figure out where to post them on this forum.

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Post by Publisher » Wed May 18, 2016 3:28 pm

PairOfDice wrote:I know it's detailed better elsewhere on the internet but there are many ways to pick hotels & deal with hotel clerks that can reduce the dreaded outcome of becoming the target of a knock & talk. I can detail some ways once I figure out where to post them on this forum.
Here:

http://www.grainbeltnews.com/modules.ph ... wforum&f=4
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Post by wendlo » Thu May 19, 2016 8:38 pm

Thanks danno thats great information. .

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Post by harryheck » Fri May 20, 2016 10:52 pm

Laws and actions will change between chains and states. While a right to privacy protects guests from unwanted searches. There are times it is perfectly legal and often necessary to remove a guest. A guest not scheduled for a long term stay is fairly easy to evict if they are breaking the rules of their contract which is signed at check-in. The secret for the guest is usually not to become disruptive. Hotels don't want to remove guests because they want return business. But if you do become disruptive they can and will remove you. The hotels I have worked for generally had a three strike and you are out rule. The disruption we kicked most people out of the hotel for was usually loudness or destructive behavior. Your safest bet is to talk to the hotel representative, find out the problem and solve the issue. The thing is, once you are out of line - you will have the attention of security as a potential risk. The first time they will usually knock on the door. If you refused to answer, the desk will call your room. If you fail to acknowledge them - odds are they will immediately call the police. If you fail to acknowledge them again they will open the door for the police as you have been deemed a disruptive guest. The police will then companion you out of the building, unless they see illegal activity happening. Then they will arrest you. Either way the likelihood of getting your room rental fee back is close to nil. If they decide you have damaged the room they can also charge you extra charges for the work needed to correct the damages. The most common extra charge when I was in the business was for people smoking in nonsmoking rooms.

http://www.hotelnewsnow.com/Articles/23 ... ve-a-guest
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Re: Knock & Talk Technique

Post by BeccaBodhi » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:15 am

Very informative, Danno. Thank you!!
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Re: Knock & Talk Technique

Post by Jakcool » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:55 pm

Very informative, Thanks.

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Re: Knock & Talk Technique

Post by Karma8791 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:09 pm

This is great info. Thanks Dano & others for sharing.
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Re: Knock & Talk Technique

Post by Annalise Lane » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:46 am

Curious if any of this information has changed since the date od the ORGINAL post.

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Re: Knock & Talk Technique

Post by Danno » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:25 pm

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... imply.html

Biggest difference is probably decision in City of LA v. Patel. Motel and hotel operators have learned from industry publications and seminars that under this U.S. Supreme Court case police cannot bully hotel/motel into showing guest registry or other check-in information under threat of arrest or prosecution.

Of course on its own the motel or hotel can still decide it will comply with law-enforcement demands to see check-in documentation without requiring the officers to seek some form of warrant.

Without the motel’s or hotel’s cooperation, however, it’s a big hassle for a single cop or cop duo to seek warrant or its equivalent. This means that, in the absence of cooperation, searches of motel/hotel records will be limited to the most coordinated, high-resource, law enforcement operations.

The foregoing discussion centers on the privacy rights of the motel/hotel itself, not the privacy rights of room occupants. However, the lesser the volume of credible info the police have, the less likely it is they could get a warrant for the room or be able to justify a warrantless search of the room — which does involve the rights of the occupants.

Bottom Line: LA v Patel helps to keep cops from treating a motel or hotel as if they own the place. The harder police have to work to investigate a non-serious crime, typically, the less likely it is that an investigation will even occur — absent some federal funding which changes the dynamic.

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Re: Knock & Talk Technique

Post by YAG » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:38 pm

Thanks Danno
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Re: Knock & Talk Technique

Post by Jakcool » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:52 pm

Thanks Danno, valuable info and a good reminder.
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Re: Knock & Talk Technique

Post by vorlon » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:03 pm

Thanks for the update.
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Re: Knock & Talk Technique

Post by BriLV » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:32 am

Great info!! Thank you so much!
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Re: Knock & Talk Technique

Post by Eastside70 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:24 pm

Excellent information. Hopefully I'll never encounter this situation, but I'll be better prepared if I do.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt. ~ Abraham Lincoln

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In memory of Danno!

Post by Jakcool » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:32 pm

Danno wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:38 am
Suppose a hotel or motel desk clerk is suspicious and calls the cops.

People enjoy the greatest freedom from searches and seizures while they are in their homes, behind closed doors. Motel and hotel rooms have the same degree of protection, if rented overnight so as to constitute the equivalent of a home. Hotel and motel clerks do not have the ability to waive your Fourth Amendment rights by letting LE into your room. Don't let LE say they do in order to coerce you to open a motel or hotel door.

If the public can't see you, you enjoy the greatest protections under the Fourth Amendment while you are in the home or in the hotel or motel room. Let's call this "super-protected," because almost always a warrant is required to enter the home where the doorway is closed.

LE may try to get you and any companion(s) into a more vulnerable position by using what is called the "Knock & Talk" technique. Once you open the door and become visible to the officers, such that members of the general public could also see you, you lose a great deal of protection under the Fourth Amendment. You can be arrested, or frisked, under the same conditions as if you were out in public, once you open that door.

A common misconception is that, if you stay on the indoor-side of the threshold of an open doorway, you remain super-protected under the Fourth Amendment. But that is simply not so.

Here's how "Knock & Talk" works. Simply, LE will knock and wait for a reaction. One possible reaction is that you say something. Then LE will continue to engage you in a conversation.

LE may gain greater powers depending on any other reaction you may have. If they hear or see evidence being destroyed, this may allow LE to gain probable cause for a warrant or possibly even empower LE to enter without a warrant. Care should be taken not to make a lot of noise that could be misinterpreted as destruction of evidence. The same is true with gestures in front of windows into which LE could look from the outside. Once you open that door, what LE sees in plain view, or hears through the opening of the door, or smells with the door opened, may provide a basis for your arrest or a frisk of your person.

From your standpoint the best reaction to the "Knock & Talk" technique may be to simply keep quiet and wait for LE to go away after five or ten minutes. Again, do not open the door just because someone says the motel or hotel will open it if you do not. How will you opening the door be any better than having the door opened by a desk clerk? Besides, it's a search or seizure if the clerk does it; it's not if you do it with consent.

If you do not want to simply remain silent and hope LE will go away, eventually, you could speak to LE behind a closed door or even call dispatch to see if they will put you through to the officer(s). You should make it clear you do not wish to speak with LE and will not open the door without a warrant. If LE seems to be ordering you to open the door, clarify that by asking if it is a request or an order. If LE says it is a request, stand your ground and do not open the door. If it is an order, clarify that one more time and then open the door so you do not get charged with obstruction or resisting.

So what should you do if LE comes knocking and will not simply go away? Do not open the door immediately, unless you truly have nothing whatsoever to hide.

Perhaps while you are waiting to open the door as LE persists in knocking, you and any companion(s) could discuss a game plan and agree to stick to the plan once the door is opened. One game plan could be for any alleged Contractor(s) not to open the door of the home or room while in possession of any money whilst any alleged hobbyist can emerge in possession of any money. Obviously, then, no cash was ever exchanged and any game plan to say you are just intimate friends will carry a lot more weight than if the alleged Contractor is in possession of hundreds or even thousands of dollars in currency.
:pirateflag ""You can not unfu_k what has been fu_ked"" :pirateflag
:pirateflag A 7 in my book is a 7 in the Richter Scale for earthquakes :pirateflag

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Re: In memory of Danno!

Post by BrianaBourne » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:22 am

Jakcool wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:32 pm
Danno wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:38 am
Suppose a hotel or motel desk clerk is suspicious and calls the cops.

People enjoy the greatest freedom from searches and seizures while they are in their homes, behind closed doors. Motel and hotel rooms have the same degree of protection, if rented overnight so as to constitute the equivalent of a home. Hotel and motel clerks do not have the ability to waive your Fourth Amendment rights by letting LE into your room. Don't let LE say they do in order to coerce you to open a motel or hotel door.

If the public can't see you, you enjoy the greatest protections under the Fourth Amendment while you are in the home or in the hotel or motel room. Let's call this "super-protected," because almost always a warrant is required to enter the home where the doorway is closed.

LE may try to get you and any companion(s) into a more vulnerable position by using what is called the "Knock & Talk" technique. Once you open the door and become visible to the officers, such that members of the general public could also see you, you lose a great deal of protection under the Fourth Amendment. You can be arrested, or frisked, under the same conditions as if you were out in public, once you open that door.

A common misconception is that, if you stay on the indoor-side of the threshold of an open doorway, you remain super-protected under the Fourth Amendment. But that is simply not so.

Here's how "Knock & Talk" works. Simply, LE will knock and wait for a reaction. One possible reaction is that you say something. Then LE will continue to engage you in a conversation.

LE may gain greater powers depending on any other reaction you may have. If they hear or see evidence being destroyed, this may allow LE to gain probable cause for a warrant or possibly even empower LE to enter without a warrant. Care should be taken not to make a lot of noise that could be misinterpreted as destruction of evidence. The same is true with gestures in front of windows into which LE could look from the outside. Once you open that door, what LE sees in plain view, or hears through the opening of the door, or smells with the door opened, may provide a basis for your arrest or a frisk of your person.

From your standpoint the best reaction to the "Knock & Talk" technique may be to simply keep quiet and wait for LE to go away after five or ten minutes. Again, do not open the door just because someone says the motel or hotel will open it if you do not. How will you opening the door be any better than having the door opened by a desk clerk? Besides, it's a search or seizure if the clerk does it; it's not if you do it with consent.

If you do not want to simply remain silent and hope LE will go away, eventually, you could speak to LE behind a closed door or even call dispatch to see if they will put you through to the officer(s). You should make it clear you do not wish to speak with LE and will not open the door without a warrant. If LE seems to be ordering you to open the door, clarify that by asking if it is a request or an order. If LE says it is a request, stand your ground and do not open the door. If it is an order, clarify that one more time and then open the door so you do not get charged with obstruction or resisting.

So what should you do if LE comes knocking and will not simply go away? Do not open the door immediately, unless you truly have nothing whatsoever to hide.

Perhaps while you are waiting to open the door as LE persists in knocking, you and any companion(s) could discuss a game plan and agree to stick to the plan once the door is opened. One game plan could be for any alleged Contractor(s) not to open the door of the home or room while in possession of any money whilst any alleged hobbyist can emerge in possession of any money. Obviously, then, no cash was ever exchanged and any game plan to say you are just intimate friends will carry a lot more weight than if the alleged Contractor is in possession of hundreds or even thousands of dollars in currency.
I'm just going to say this...If as Companions, we
1. Get Proper screening information. (A lot of gents give fake info)
2. Screen clients accordingly. (DM me if you need help for tools available)
3. Research Hotels and areas. (Don't stay in a dumpy hotel)
4. Do NOT book clients back to back. (Space them out, take longer sessions)
5. Do NOT show up at a Hotel looking the part...full makeup, sexy clothes/jewelry
6. Do NOT make any special requests from the hotel and don't complain.
Look, at the end of the day we are also looking out for the clients safety as well. NOT just ours.
:x Briana
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