ESPN The Last Dance

Pro Sports Talk
User avatar
ShyDaniel
Sustaining Member
Sustaining Member
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:50 pm
Your Gender: Male
Your Role: Admirer
Your City: Quad Cities
Location: Earth
Contact:

ESPN The Last Dance

Post by ShyDaniel » Fri May 22, 2020 9:21 pm

Anyone else watch this series on ESPN? It's amazing to me that the biggest complaint about Michael Jordon is that he expected too much and was too hard on his teammates. His mentality is what lead them to 3-peat twice, and people complain about that? What a soft world we now live in.

User avatar
hegone17
Advanced Donor
Advanced Donor
Posts: 549
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:00 pm
Your Gender: Male
Your Role: Admirer
Your City: QCA
Location: On the good side of the mighty miss

Re: ESPN The Last Dance

Post by hegone17 » Fri May 22, 2020 11:34 pm

SD - MJ in that stretch was MUST see sport. Didn’t miss a game. The NBA now is to me unwatchable & these swafties will not play and practice while making 5 - 10 million a season. They are afforded the 5-10 million a season on MJ’s back during the growing years of the league. The league was in trouble without it after Magic/Bird then Pistons. The dunk competition single handedly made the league relevant

User avatar
ShyDaniel
Sustaining Member
Sustaining Member
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:50 pm
Your Gender: Male
Your Role: Admirer
Your City: Quad Cities
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: ESPN The Last Dance

Post by ShyDaniel » Fri May 22, 2020 11:39 pm

I agree. I remember those years fondly. The Bulls were so huge, people were carving that damn logo in their head.

All the talk on social media seems to lean towards the Jordon/Lebron who-was-better argument. I think Jordon did more to elevate his teammates than Colby, Lebron, or any other player. But there is no real way to measure that. People just want to look at cold hard stats. Some of the stories about Jordan's competitiveness were crazy, but I think that's an ingredient you get with highly successful people.

User avatar
vorlon
Moderator - Sustaining Member
Moderator - Sustaining Member
Posts: 12540
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:00 pm
Your Gender: Male
Your Role: Admirer
Location: Beyond the Rim

Re: ESPN The Last Dance

Post by vorlon » Sat May 23, 2020 3:27 am

ShyDaniel wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 11:39 pm
I agree. I remember those years fondly. The Bulls were so huge, people were carving that damn logo in their head.

All the talk on social media seems to lean towards the Jordon/Lebron who-was-better argument. I think Jordon did more to elevate his teammates than Colby, Lebron, or any other player. But there is no real way to measure that. People just want to look at cold hard stats. Some of the stories about Jordan's competitiveness were crazy, but I think that's an ingredient you get with highly successful people.
But that level of competitiveness can be overdone and backfire to some degree. I think MJ was like that at times, as was Kobe Bryant. The player I think was the best at elevating his teammates was Magic Johnson.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

User avatar
shyboy69
Sustaining Member
Sustaining Member
Posts: 11009
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:00 pm
Your Gender: Male
Your Role: Admirer
Your City: Near everything but close to nothing
Location: Right here for now

Re: ESPN The Last Dance

Post by shyboy69 » Sat May 23, 2020 8:12 am

Ive never been a huge NBA fan. But here goes the who's better Jordon or James. Bryant isn't even close. They are all different players. Jordon was a bit more of a selfish scorer. Bryant was even more selfish. And this is where he fails. James is a really good team player. Almost to a fault. He isn't as flashy of a scorer as the other 2. But can still score are will.

Bryant was not a good defender. At all. Jordon was a very defensive player. BUT, he couldn't defend ALL positions as James could. I've seen James shut down extremely good guards and is strong enough to defend the post when needed. Jordon didnt have the strength for that and Bryant didnt have the desire. As I tell all my players. Defense is 80% desire and 20% technique. And I'm sure Bryant has played long enough to have learned technique.

If I had to build a team to win. I'd start with a young James. But if I had to fill an arena every night. I'd take Jordon or Dr J!

Nice guys finish last? Yes we do! Our women always finish first. Multiple times!
My sparkling personality compensates for not being hung like a horse.

User avatar
nematoda
Advanced Donor
Advanced Donor
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:00 pm
Your Gender: Male
Your Role: Admirer
Location: Iowa

Re: ESPN The Last Dance

Post by nematoda » Sat May 23, 2020 4:18 pm

Bill Russell. Hands down. As a defender, was able to stop the most prolific scorer the league ever knew (Chamberlain), made teammates better by starting the break and as a passer, and 11 Championships (to Jordan's 6 and James's 5).

I don't care about different eras, I would start a team with Russell after his 2 NCAA Championships at San Francisco (which came and went as a power only with him). And as far as being unable to compare eras, I would suggest that Jim Thorpe is the best athlete of the 20th Century, and probably a close run for best football player ever (with Jerry Rice).

User avatar
ShyDaniel
Sustaining Member
Sustaining Member
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:50 pm
Your Gender: Male
Your Role: Admirer
Your City: Quad Cities
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: ESPN The Last Dance

Post by ShyDaniel » Sat May 23, 2020 4:26 pm

God, Jerry Rice, another childhood hero. I remember playing video games and always putting him on my team, along with Barry Sanders - one of the few guys who would score a touchdown and not showboat.

I miss the NFL and NBA from decades ago. Must be an age thing.

User avatar
vorlon
Moderator - Sustaining Member
Moderator - Sustaining Member
Posts: 12540
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:00 pm
Your Gender: Male
Your Role: Admirer
Location: Beyond the Rim

Re: ESPN The Last Dance

Post by vorlon » Sun May 24, 2020 2:43 am

shyboy69 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:12 am
Ive never been a huge NBA fan. But here goes the who's better Jordon or James. Bryant isn't even close. They are all different players. Jordon was a bit more of a selfish scorer. Bryant was even more selfish. And this is where he fails. James is a really good team player. Almost to a fault. He isn't as flashy of a scorer as the other 2. But can still score are will.

Bryant was not a good defender. At all. Jordon was a very defensive player. BUT, he couldn't defend ALL positions as James could. I've seen James shut down extremely good guards and is strong enough to defend the post when needed. Jordon didnt have the strength for that and Bryant didnt have the desire. As I tell all my players. Defense is 80% desire and 20% technique. And I'm sure Bryant has played long enough to have learned technique.

If I had to build a team to win. I'd start with a young James. But if I had to fill an arena every night. I'd take Jordon or Dr J!
Kobe Bryant made the NBA All Defensive Team 12 times.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

User avatar
vorlon
Moderator - Sustaining Member
Moderator - Sustaining Member
Posts: 12540
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:00 pm
Your Gender: Male
Your Role: Admirer
Location: Beyond the Rim

Re: ESPN The Last Dance

Post by vorlon » Sun May 24, 2020 3:25 am

nematoda wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 4:18 pm
Bill Russell. Hands down. As a defender, was able to stop the most prolific scorer the league ever knew (Chamberlain), made teammates better by starting the break and as a passer, and 11 Championships (to Jordan's 6 and James's 5).

I don't care about different eras, I would start a team with Russell after his 2 NCAA Championships at San Francisco (which came and went as a power only with him). And as far as being unable to compare eras, I would suggest that Jim Thorpe is the best athlete of the 20th Century, and probably a close run for best football player ever (with Jerry Rice).
I disagree. Championships are far from the best measure of an individual player's ability because title are a measure of team greatness and Russell played on the most successful dynasty in NBA history. Russell also did not stop Chamberlain although he did slow Wilt down. But overall if you look at what each player did when playing against the other, Chamberlain comes out on top.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

User avatar
shyboy69
Sustaining Member
Sustaining Member
Posts: 11009
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:00 pm
Your Gender: Male
Your Role: Admirer
Your City: Near everything but close to nothing
Location: Right here for now

Re: ESPN The Last Dance

Post by shyboy69 » Sun May 24, 2020 2:49 pm

vorlon wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 2:43 am
shyboy69 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:12 am
Ive never been a huge NBA fan. But here goes the who's better Jordon or James. Bryant isn't even close. They are all different players. Jordon was a bit more of a selfish scorer. Bryant was even more selfish. And this is where he fails. James is a really good team player. Almost to a fault. He isn't as flashy of a scorer as the other 2. But can still score are will.

Bryant was not a good defender. At all. Jordon was a very defensive player. BUT, he couldn't defend ALL positions as James could. I've seen James shut down extremely good guards and is strong enough to defend the post when needed. Jordon didnt have the strength for that and Bryant didnt have the desire. As I tell all my players. Defense is 80% desire and 20% technique. And I'm sure Bryant has played long enough to have learned technique.

If I had to build a team to win. I'd start with a young James. But if I had to fill an arena every night. I'd take Jordon or Dr J!
Kobe Bryant made the NBA All Defensive Team 12 times.
Not going to debate that. But, as with all star voting, some of that was a popularity contest. He really wasn't a good defender.

Nice guys finish last? Yes we do! Our women always finish first. Multiple times!
My sparkling personality compensates for not being hung like a horse.

User avatar
vorlon
Moderator - Sustaining Member
Moderator - Sustaining Member
Posts: 12540
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:00 pm
Your Gender: Male
Your Role: Admirer
Location: Beyond the Rim

Re: ESPN The Last Dance

Post by vorlon » Sun May 24, 2020 4:14 pm

shyboy69 wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 2:49 pm
vorlon wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 2:43 am
shyboy69 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:12 am
Ive never been a huge NBA fan. But here goes the who's better Jordon or James. Bryant isn't even close. They are all different players. Jordon was a bit more of a selfish scorer. Bryant was even more selfish. And this is where he fails. James is a really good team player. Almost to a fault. He isn't as flashy of a scorer as the other 2. But can still score are will.

Bryant was not a good defender. At all. Jordon was a very defensive player. BUT, he couldn't defend ALL positions as James could. I've seen James shut down extremely good guards and is strong enough to defend the post when needed. Jordon didnt have the strength for that and Bryant didnt have the desire. As I tell all my players. Defense is 80% desire and 20% technique. And I'm sure Bryant has played long enough to have learned technique.

If I had to build a team to win. I'd start with a young James. But if I had to fill an arena every night. I'd take Jordon or Dr J!
Kobe Bryant made the NBA All Defensive Team 12 times.
Not going to debate that. But, as with all star voting, some of that was a popularity contest. He really wasn't a good defender.
He wouldn't have gotten 12 unless he was an excellent defender but I do agree he was being given more credit than he deserved in his later years.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

User avatar
nematoda
Advanced Donor
Advanced Donor
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:00 pm
Your Gender: Male
Your Role: Admirer
Location: Iowa

Re: ESPN The Last Dance

Post by nematoda » Mon May 25, 2020 5:02 pm

vorlon wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 3:25 am
nematoda wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 4:18 pm
Bill Russell. Hands down. As a defender, was able to stop the most prolific scorer the league ever knew (Chamberlain), made teammates better by starting the break and as a passer, and 11 Championships (to Jordan's 6 and James's 5).

I don't care about different eras, I would start a team with Russell after his 2 NCAA Championships at San Francisco (which came and went as a power only with him). And as far as being unable to compare eras, I would suggest that Jim Thorpe is the best athlete of the 20th Century, and probably a close run for best football player ever (with Jerry Rice).
I disagree. Championships are far from the best measure of an individual player's ability because title are a measure of team greatness and Russell played on the most successful dynasty in NBA history. Russell also did not stop Chamberlain although he did slow Wilt down. But overall if you look at what each player did when playing against the other, Chamberlain comes out on top.
Bleacher Report (and Wikipedia) have interesting analyses on Wilt vs Russell. The reason I usual bring this up is that the Jordan camp like to note his 6 championships over James's 3 (mistakenly said 5 in my original post). The best takeaway was that Russell's teams were not hands down that much better (especially after Cousy left). Russell is known for making his teammates better (more so than any of the other 3). Ironically, James's attempts to do so have generally been unsuccessful. Russell's 7-0 in game sevens speaks volumes, much like that will to win many attribute to Jordan.

User avatar
RattleHead
Donor
Donor
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:59 pm
Your Gender: Male
Your Role: Admirer
Your City: Beloit, WI

Re: ESPN The Last Dance

Post by RattleHead » Mon May 25, 2020 10:31 pm

There's a pretty good Youtube video that finishes Jordan's documentary. If you liked "The Last Dance", it's worth a watch.


Post Reply

Return to “Professional Sports”