Vaccinatation saving lives

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Vaccinatation saving lives

Post by Publisher » Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:17 pm

"All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke

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Re: Vaccinatation saving lives

Post by iowanprimate » Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:24 pm

If they weren't also petri dishes for new variants (and putting pressure on our healthcare system), I'd almost say "So what? Big deal." Let the anti-vaxxers take themselves out of the gene pool.

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Re: Vaccinatation saving lives

Post by YetAnotherHobbist » Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:29 pm

iowanprimate wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:24 pm
If they weren't also petri dishes for new variants (and putting pressure on our healthcare system), I'd almost say "So what? Big deal." Let the anti-vaxxers take themselves out of the gene pool.
Though - come to think of it, aren't the people who have been vaccinated more of a source of risk?
After all, they are the ones that are putting pressure on the virus to survive...

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Re: Vaccinatation saving lives

Post by vorlon » Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:47 pm

YetAnotherHobbist wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:29 pm
iowanprimate wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:24 pm
If they weren't also petri dishes for new variants (and putting pressure on our healthcare system), I'd almost say "So what? Big deal." Let the anti-vaxxers take themselves out of the gene pool.
Though - come to think of it, aren't the people who have been vaccinated more of a source of risk?
After all, they are the ones that are putting pressure on the virus to survive...
No, the more the virus can spread, the more chances it has to mutate. It is a lot harder to spread to people who have been vaccinated. That's part of why the people who refuse to be vaccinated (as opposed to the ones who have legitimate health reasons for it) are not only endangering themselves but the others around them who, as it turns out, are also less likely to be vaccinated themselves. And so the cycle perpetuates as their remains cluster in the general population that are move vulnerable to the disease.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

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Re: Vaccinatation saving lives

Post by The_Carpenter » Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:13 pm

vorlon wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:47 pm
YetAnotherHobbist wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:29 pm
iowanprimate wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:24 pm
If they weren't also petri dishes for new variants (and putting pressure on our healthcare system), I'd almost say "So what? Big deal." Let the anti-vaxxers take themselves out of the gene pool.
Though - come to think of it, aren't the people who have been vaccinated more of a source of risk?
After all, they are the ones that are putting pressure on the virus to survive...
No, the more the virus can spread, the more chances it has to mutate. It is a lot harder to spread to people who have been vaccinated. That's part of why the people who refuse to be vaccinated (as opposed to the ones who have legitimate health reasons for it) are not only endangering themselves but the others around them who, as it turns out, are also less likely to be vaccinated themselves. And so the cycle perpetuates as their remains cluster in the general population that are move vulnerable to the disease.
Vorlon,
minor correction,
Although greatly reduced odds, even vaccinated folks can still spread the virus as carriers if they happen to pick it up.
And I'm not talking just external contact. The crap can still live briefly in a vaccinated host, and be spread to others, until the host's vaccinated enabled antibodies win the internal war.

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Re: Vaccinatation saving lives

Post by iowanprimate » Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:47 pm

The_Carpenter wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:13 pm
vorlon wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:47 pm
YetAnotherHobbist wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:29 pm
iowanprimate wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:24 pm
If they weren't also petri dishes for new variants (and putting pressure on our healthcare system), I'd almost say "So what? Big deal." Let the anti-vaxxers take themselves out of the gene pool.
Though - come to think of it, aren't the people who have been vaccinated more of a source of risk?
After all, they are the ones that are putting pressure on the virus to survive...
No, the more the virus can spread, the more chances it has to mutate. It is a lot harder to spread to people who have been vaccinated. That's part of why the people who refuse to be vaccinated (as opposed to the ones who have legitimate health reasons for it) are not only endangering themselves but the others around them who, as it turns out, are also less likely to be vaccinated themselves. And so the cycle perpetuates as their remains cluster in the general population that are move vulnerable to the disease.
Vorlon,
minor correction,
Although greatly reduced odds, even vaccinated folks can still spread the virus as carriers if they happen to pick it up.
And I'm not talking just external contact. The crap can still live briefly in a vaccinated host, and be spread to others, until the host's vaccinated enabled antibodies win the internal war.
But that particular risk is relatively minor. This specific virus (COVID-19) has shown a great propensity for mutating and developing new variants. I don't think you mean to, but your comment could be construed to mean that there's as much danger in at-risk people getting the Novel Coronavirus from a vaccinated person as there is from large numbers of anti-vaxxers providing active culture labs for the virus to grow, unchecked in the wild, and the inherent potential therein for mutation as well as cross-contamination into vaccinated society at large.

Yes, vaccinated people can be temporary carriers. 0.8% of the fatalities from COVID in June were in vaccinated people. 6 people (last I had heard) had fatal reactions to the J&J vaccine. Pfizer (or was it Moderna?) caused an elevated risk of enlarged hearts in teens.

But, vaccinated people are only carriers temporarily, and if enough people are vaccinated and continue to practice safe life, the virus will eventually miss its next vector. I'd have to read the article again, but the efficacy of the vaccine is way up there. No vaccine is 100% effective in all populations. 6 out of how many million doses of J&J? We let cars with worse safety records than that on the highways. And the rate of enlarged heart (cardio my...?) in teens was slightly higher than normal, but about a third of what it is in teens who actually contract COVID-19.

So it's all risk/reward, cost-benefit analysis, and playing the odds. And frankly, the odds are with getting vaccine into peoples arms ASAP.

Maybe we should tell them they can't have it, and see if they start screaming for it because we've taken it away from them...

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Re: Vaccinatation saving lives

Post by vorlon » Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:08 am

The_Carpenter wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:13 pm
vorlon wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:47 pm
YetAnotherHobbist wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:29 pm
iowanprimate wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:24 pm
If they weren't also petri dishes for new variants (and putting pressure on our healthcare system), I'd almost say "So what? Big deal." Let the anti-vaxxers take themselves out of the gene pool.
Though - come to think of it, aren't the people who have been vaccinated more of a source of risk?
After all, they are the ones that are putting pressure on the virus to survive...
No, the more the virus can spread, the more chances it has to mutate. It is a lot harder to spread to people who have been vaccinated. That's part of why the people who refuse to be vaccinated (as opposed to the ones who have legitimate health reasons for it) are not only endangering themselves but the others around them who, as it turns out, are also less likely to be vaccinated themselves. And so the cycle perpetuates as their remains cluster in the general population that are move vulnerable to the disease.
Vorlon,
minor correction,
Although greatly reduced odds, even vaccinated folks can still spread the virus as carriers if they happen to pick it up.
And I'm not talking just external contact. The crap can still live briefly in a vaccinated host, and be spread to others, until the host's vaccinated enabled antibodies win the internal war.
That's why I said it was harder.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

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Re: Vaccinatation saving lives

Post by scarletknight » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:51 pm

But according to this Newmax host, maybe vaccinations saving lives isn't really a good thing at all.

https://www.mediamatters.org/newsmax/ne ... d-wipe-out
Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. ~Calvin & Hobbes

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Re: Vaccinatation saving lives

Post by vorlon » Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:42 pm

scarletknight wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:51 pm
But according to this Newmax host, maybe vaccinations saving lives isn't really a good thing at all.

https://www.mediamatters.org/newsmax/ne ... d-wipe-out
Image
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

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Re: Vaccinatation saving lives

Post by The_Carpenter » Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:51 pm

scarletknight wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:51 pm
But according to this Newmax host, maybe vaccinations saving lives isn't really a good thing at all.

https://www.mediamatters.org/newsmax/ne ... d-wipe-out
So...
Intentional Darwinism as a species evolutionary priority?

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Re: Vaccinatation saving lives

Post by iowanprimate » Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:11 pm

The_Carpenter wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:51 pm
scarletknight wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:51 pm
But according to this Newmax host, maybe vaccinations saving lives isn't really a good thing at all.

https://www.mediamatters.org/newsmax/ne ... d-wipe-out
So...
Intentional Darwinism as a species evolutionary priority?
More like a political side-effect...

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Re: Vaccinatation saving lives

Post by Pianomn626 » Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:11 am

AS we studied the research in graduate school (I graduated 3 months ago), a few things became clear. And recent research is actually verifying those suspicions.

First, mask use. For every study there has been noting mask effectiveness, there is a study- peer-reviewed, mind you- that says they don't. I think this fuels the mess around mask use. It also limits exposures to other normal pathogens that the body uses to maintain a healthy immune system (see next point).

Second, Hygeine Theory of Medicine. This theory originally postulated that exposures to certain environmental and biological pathogens at a young age reduces incidence of anaphylactic reactions and other atopic conditions (aka asthma). This has been borne out; most pediatricians are now recommending small exposures of eggs and peanut products at a young age as that has been shown to decrease incidence of anaphylactic reactions and allergies. This is similar to exposure therapies used by allergists to reduce or eliminate severe allergies (especially to antibiotics). This was also expanded upon by a study upon rats. Two cohorts of rats were used in the experiment. One cohort lived in normal conditions, normal food, normal water, etc. The second cohort lived in aseptic conditions; their living conditions were cleaned regularly with aseptic cleaners, reducing their normal exposures. After a period of months, both cohorts were exposed to an identical mild pathogenic bacteria. The control cohort demonstrated no symptoms- their immune system fought off the exposure completely. The experimental arm, however, resulted in severe illness of the animals- despite the fact that this was a normal, every day pathogen. Their immune systems were severely weakened. The results of this study are now being demonstrated in people. The aseptic environment we have been forced to live in for the past two years has resulted in more severe reactions to normal pathogens. Anecdotally, we are seeing unusually severe cases of hand, foot, and mouth disease in children, significantly increased illness with the common cold, more severe influenza infections with a worsened mortality rate, and generally sicker people. In addition, past research has shown that use of masks and respirators causes hypertension. An initial research study published in December 2020 showed increased cardiopulmonary work and increased heart rate during normal levels of physical condition, and even more so with physical exertion (exercise, physical labor). The result is an increased cardiovascular risk; the hypothesis is that we will see record numbers of cardiac-related deaths during the pandemic (more than normal increase) directly related to mask use. The hypothesis also portends a dramatic increase in overmedication for hypertension due to falsely elevated blood pressures taken in facilities where masks are required (similar to White Coat Syndrome), resulting in increased syncope, falls, and injury related to such. In the end, while "preventing" one form of morbidity we may be simply transferring it to another- espeically now that we have safe, clinically effective treatment protocols for the virus. We are already seeing a five-fold increase in Stage III and Stage IV cancers due to government designating screenings as non-essential. Hypothesized deaths from missed screenings in the US are between 2 and 20 million over normal over the next decade (outpacing deaths from Covid itself).

Third, again related to Hygeine theory of medicine. Recent research on the immune systems of those who have been vaccinated AND had the delta or mu variants of the virus show a form of "superimmunity" to Covid-19 (September 2021). The huge upside is that this superimmunity apparently extends to ALL variants and potential variants of the coronavirus. What's interesting is that in order to get this superimmunity, two exposures are needed but one MUST be the virus itself (getting Covid twice, vaccination first then delta or Covid then vaccination); the same superimmunity is NOT conferred apparently with boosters. The hypothesis is this: normally a pandemic circles the globe twice before essentially disappearing (H1N1 infected 65,000,000 in the US- note, that's 20 million more than Covid- in less than a year and a half, then largely disappeared after the second orbit). Vast majority of pandemics last 2 years. That is NOT the case with Covid, and hygeine theorists believe that our safeguards- mask use, excessive cleaning and sterilization, aseptic environments- have actually PROLONGED the pandemic by as much as 5-10 years. In the end, a longer pandemic means more risk of mutating into something truly horrific rather than a mild-to-moderate inflammatory virus as is currently. The hypothesis is that, in the past, two circles of the globe resulted in the two exposures needed to create the superimmunity in enough people to grant a herd immunity. It means that we are actively preventing this from happening and, as a result, actively prolonging the pandemic, putting more people at risk in the long term. This is just a hypothesis currently, and more research is needed, but the facts medically fit the presentations. If true, you can expect masks to continue through at least 2025.

Lastly, some facts on Covid. It does NOT live long on fomites (surfaces). It is killed in milliseconds by exposure to ultraviolet radiation (aka sunlight, hence increased transmission rates indoors). It does not do well at all with temperatures below 60 degrees or above 100 degrees. If it is windy, the odds of catching the virus outdoors is nil. Antibiotic soaps are useless against Covid- it's a virus; it's the friction of hand washing and the water temperature tht removes the virus. Nickelback music is fatal to Covid-19, just like most other life forms, but it secretly likes Barry Manilow.

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Re: Vaccinatation saving lives

Post by Publisher » Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:08 am

Can you post your references? The studies I've read contradict several of your points.
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